Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

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jwaddle
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Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by jwaddle »

Does anyone besides me see a problem with this auction listing?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Guns-and-Roses-prin ... dZViewItem
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Post by Shonquan »

jwaddle wrote:Does anyone besides me see a problem with this auction listing?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Guns-and-Roses-prin ... dZViewItem

26 bids, up to 355, and it's an offset...yeah I do.
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Post by jwaddle »

Shonquan wrote:26 bids, up to 355, and it's an offset...yeah I do.

Anyone else? Please be more specific.
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Post by rhombus_77 »

i took a peak, and couldn't find anything glaring. $355 is high, but it was going to happen eventually. The only thing I could see, is that it has been stored flat, yet there are glasses holding down the four corners.
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Re: official Ebay WOW this print went high Thread

Post by jwaddle »

Are any of the bidders or the seller members here. :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
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Post by bigstrunso »

Present and accounted for.


My auction and I stand behind it.
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Post by jwaddle »

bigstrunso wrote:Present and accounted for.


My auction and I stand behind it.


Your original post here asked me why I was so interested in your auction? That question now seems to have been edited out but this is my answer.

Because you list it as an original print and it is not. It is an offset lithograph and there is a huge difference and you do not mention this fact in your description. You already know this because we have discussed it through your ebay listing. It is only AFTER asking you to clarify your listing and you ignoring me that I come to the forum for discussion. A serigraph is an original print as is an etching, engraving, stone lithograph, drypoint, monoprint, aquatint, etc. An offset is a REPRODUCTION. It may be an authorized reproduction and it may be a limited edition reproduction and it maybe signed and numbered reproduction but it is not an original print, it is a reproduction and I think you owe it to potential buyers to tell the truth in your listing. There have been numerous discussions on this forum about problems of misrepresentation on ebay and I would think that members here would be especially careful about this. There is no mention anywhere in your auction that you are selling an offset. The desirability and value of an offset is considerably less than the original serigraph and that is important information. That probably explains the high bids the item has received. This is also grounds for voiding the auction. The title of this thread is "official Ebay WOW this print went high Thread". When the explanation for that phenomena is misrepresentation in the auction description I think it needs to be mentioned. I welcome further discussion on this point by members here.
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Re: official Ebay WOW this print went high Thread

Post by bigstrunso »

Yes Jerry, I received your EBay messages. The ones with the insults and the aggressive tone.


I have stellar feedback on EBay and many members here that I've had dealings with say the same.



You wake up on the wrong side of the bed today Jerry?



Like I said in my private message, you really need to focus on things like fixing your own shipping problems before you go nitpicking with strangers like this.
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Re: official Ebay WOW this print went high Thread

Post by jwaddle »

bigstrunso wrote:Yes Jerry, I received your EBay messages. The ones with the insults and the aggressive tone.

I have stellar feedback on EBay and many members here that I've had dealings with say the same.

You wake up on the wrong side of the bed today Jerry?

Like I said in my private message, you really need to focus on things like fixing your own shipping problems before you go nitpicking with starngers like this.


They were not insults and this has nothing to do with feedback or what you may think are my shipping problems. All of my orders are insured so if you have had a problem in the past any lack of resolution is on you. Why do you continue to ignore the point of my criticism that you grossly misrepresented your auction? I also have stellar feedback and hundreds of satisfied customers but that is not what we are discussing here.
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Post by bigstrunso »

EBay asks if the print is an original or a repro. IMO this is an original print from the run of 750. It is unique from the run of 300. To me repro is a kinkos type copy of an original print.


If you think your EBay messages didn't contain insults then you need to get a grip. You came across like a complete jerk.
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Post by DZEL »

Sounds like semantics to me.
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Post by whyhoo »

DZEL wrote:Sounds like semantics to me.



agreed.
on point like a decimalist?
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Post by Shonquan »

yeah...after reading strunsos responses I agree that it's all semantics
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by bigstrunso »

I'll go with conniption........ :lol:


conniption = a word i have not been using nearly enough lately
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Post by jwaddle »

DZEL wrote:Sounds like semantics to me.

whyhoo wrote:
DZEL wrote:Sounds like semantics to me.

agreed.

Shonquan wrote:yeah...after reading strunsos responses I agree that it's all semantics


Semantics is the study of meaning not the changing of meaning.
In the art world the term "original print" has a specific meaning and it in no way includes offset lithograph.The seller is aware that he is selling an offset but conveniently neglects to mention it in the auction description. If you all don't see a problem with this then you have no right to complain in the future about misrepresentation on ebay. I think it unusual that there is total silence on this issue from the real experts on this forum. Hang me out to dry if you wish but your silence only adds validity to my objection and reinforces the deception. How can you call yourself serious collectors if you don't know the difference between an original print and an offset lithograph. I give up> :roll:
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Post by admonkey »

jwaddle wrote: How can you call yourself serious collectors if you don't know the difference between an original print and an offset lithograph. I give up> :roll:


There are screen prints.

There are lithographic prints.

There are giclée prints.

There are intaglio prints.

There are monotype prints.

All these and many others, signed and unsigned, in limited editions and otherwise, are collected.

Now tell me, Jerry, in your art guru-ishness, just what, exactly, you consider to be "an original print," because, as a serious art collector, I throw myself on the pyre of your burning library of knowledge.
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by jshea »

I don't see anything stating it was a "screenprint" or "serigraph," only a "print"...and that term gets thrown around very loosely. He does clearly state it's 24x36 and part of an edition of 750. Add in the picture and it should be obvious to a buyer that it's the offset. Anyone willing to spend $355 on a print should know the difference; if they don't, I have trouble sympathizing.

You are certainly entitled to disagree with his listing, but to call this a black-white case of "misrepresentation" is extreme. The listing is neither "false" nor "misleading," and those are the key terms of a "misrepresentation." If anything, it could only be considered an insufficient description...and ebay is fraught with those. Your responses are often based on something very literal, so please recognize the difference.

Again...you spend $350 on something, you should know the facts. There was more than enough evidence here.
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by robotoil »

jshea wrote:I don't see anything stating it was a "screenprint" or "serigraph," only a "print"...and that term gets thrown around very loosely. He does clearly state it's 24x36 and part of an edition of 750. Add in the picture and it should be obvious to a buyer that it's the offset.
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

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Image
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admonkey wrote:
jwaddle wrote: How can you call yourself serious collectors if you don't know the difference between an original print and an offset lithograph. I give up> :roll:


There are screen prints.
The correct term is "serigraph", an original print. The screen is the tool used to create the serigraph.

There are lithographic prints.
Both limestone and offset, two different things, one an original print the other, not.

There are giclée prints.
An ink jet computer print, not an original print.

There are intaglio prints.
A type of etching, an original print.

There are monotype prints.
Several different prints fall under this catagory, most would probably be originals but by definition not all.

All those, and many others, signed and unsigned, in limited editions and otherwise, are collected.

Now tell me, Jerry, in your art guru-ishness, just what, exactly, you consider to be "an original print," because, as a serious art collector, I throw myself on the pyre of your burning library of knowledge.


You can collect anything you want to collect but you can't change the definitions of words. You can collect pogs or Pokimon cards but that doesn't make them original prints. It only means you have a hobby. You guys seem to value my opinion only if it agrees with yours. I make no claim to guru-ishness. You can make fun of me if you wish. It seems to be a favorite spectator sport here.
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Post by MrMurk »

These patterns are trippy man.
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Re: Re:

Post by admonkey »

jwaddle wrote:
admonkey wrote:
jwaddle wrote: How can you call yourself serious collectors if you don't know the difference between an original print and an offset lithograph. I give up> :roll:


There are screen prints.
The correct term is "serigraph", an original print. The screen is the tool used to create the serigraph.

There are lithographic prints.
Both limestone and offset, two different things, one an original print the other, not.

There are giclée prints.
An ink jet computer print, not an original print.

There are intaglio prints.
A type of etching, an original print.

There are monotype prints.
Several different prints fall under this catagory, most would probably be originals but by definition not all.

All those, and many others, signed and unsigned, in limited editions and otherwise, are collected.

Now tell me, Jerry, in your art guru-ishness, just what, exactly, you consider to be "an original print," because, as a serious art collector, I throw myself on the pyre of your burning library of knowledge.


You can collect anything you want to collect but you can't change the definitions of words. You can collect pogs or Pokimon cards but that doesn't make them original prints. It only means you have a hobby. You guys seem to value my opinion only if it agrees with yours. I make no claim to guru-ishness. You can make fun of me if you wish. It seems to be a favorite spectator sport here.


And you, Jerry, are being evasive.

After listing several varieties of art prints, I asked for your definition of an original print, and you answered offering only prattle on pogs and pontification on Pokimon.

I can find a hundred sources on the internet that would dis-prove, in either direction, any of the "original" or "not original" arguments you've made, above. You're simply applying your own definitions.

In fact, there are lithographs on your own store's website that make no distinction between "original" and "reproduction."

You are certainly not my favorite spectator sport here, nor is cleaning up in the wake of your oftentimes outlandish tirades a pleasant pastime. It doesn't evoke springtimes spent fielding fly balls in center field or even, oh, the joys of sticking my fist into a hornets' nest hanging from a limb.

Yet here I am-- again-- because it's one of the things I do here on the forum and so often, particularly of late, the cleaning up on aisle three seems to neither be for cause nor for alarm.

Yet the cleaning up needs to be done.

Now, would you like to answer my question regarding what an original print is or shall we continue with the mop and bucket?
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by jwaddle »

jshea wrote:I don't see anything stating it was a "screenprint" or "serigraph," only a "print"...and that term gets thrown around very loosely. He does clearly state it's 24x36 and part of an edition of 750. Add in the picture and it should be obvious to a buyer that it's the offset. Anyone willing to spend $355 on a print should know the difference; if they don't, I have trouble sympathizing.

You are certainly entitled to disagree with his listing, but to call this a black-white case of "misrepresentation" is extreme. The listing is neither "false" nor "misleading," and those are the key terms of a "misrepresentation." If anything, it could only be considered an insufficient description...and ebay is fraught with those. Your responses are often based on something very literal, so please recognize the difference.

Again...you spend $350 on something, you should know the facts. There was more than enough evidence here.



He listed it as an "Original Print" and your assumption that it should be obvious to the buyer that it is an offset is ridiculous on its face. All the buyer has to go by is what is in the listing. Had he listed it as an original Shepard Fairey offset lithograph, that would have been true. The listing IS both false and misleading. The seller has used very specific art terms in his other auctions so why omit the important fact that this one is an offset? This is something very literal and that is my whole point. You say that ebay is fraught with insufficient descriptions. That's a cop out and doesn't justify the deception. Just because someone spends a lot of money on something doesn't mean that they should "know the facts". If that were true then there would be no point in this thread and there would be no sub-prime mortgage crisis. You people are the ones that express the amazement in the prices here in the "official Ebay WOW this print went high Thread" - Just by using this thread you are silently questioning whether these buyers know what they are doing. You ask "What is that idiot doing bidding $500.00 when the same print is there with a BIN for $300.00?" Let the buyer beware, there is fraud afoot and if he is too stupid to see it then he will be the victim. Don't complain when you are the victim. One more nail in the coffin for truth. I don't really care if you all side with him against me. I don't see this as a competition, I see it as a question of honesty. I submit that the seller knew exactly what he was doing when he left out the most important part of his listing and I don't really care whether you agree with me or not. The fact that you don't agree does not make me wrong.
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by jshea »

jwaddle wrote:The fact that you don't agree does not make me wrong.


And that, Jerry, is why people are constantly feuding with you. You don't debate people. You merely tell them they are wrong, even where the issue is entirely subjective. That is why your posts are consistently filled with words like "arrogant" and "jerk." You do not respect the opinions of other people, presumably because you feel your knowledge and experience are more compelling.

And on an unrelated note, I'm not the enemy. I've been a fan of your store for over a year, as evidenced by my thread in 'off-site commerce' that consistently advertises newly posted prints on your site. I spent more than $2,000 on your website in the last ~15 months. But to be honest, your ego has gotten to be too much. Enjoy the loss of business.

I'm not debating, I'm just telling you.
Last edited by jshea on Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by bigstrunso »

I'm not sure why you feel the need to cry fraud so loudly Jerry. You were a real jack-arse in your initial contact with me and since, my attitude toward you has been less than friendly. Is that why you are continuing this charade?


I explained to you why I termed it an original print and I stand by that explanation. If there is some hardline definition of "original print" then maybe I'm wrong and I'll be happy to switch up my listings in the future.


There is no greater evil taking place here, but I thank you for your vigilance. You can take your bullet from your revolver and place it back in your shirt pocket now...........
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