Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

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jwaddle
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Re: Re:

Post by jwaddle »

admonkey wrote: And you, Jerry, are being evasive.


I'm not being evasive and you are not being genuine. I am not going to give you the opportunity to pick my words apart one at a time. I can picture you salivating just waiting for the oportunity. You are smart enough to fully understand the truth in what I say. The fact that you are badgering me says more about how you feel about me than the truth you supposedly seek. You are just being hypocritical and you deserve no respect from me for that role you play and I emphasize the word PLAY. The offset lithographs on my site are listed as offset lithographs and the limestone lithographs on my site are listed as genuine stone lithographs. No deception there. The easiest way for me to make my point is with the Peace Girl print. Are any of you willing to call the Syracuse Cultural Workers Offset Reproduction of the Original Peace Girl Serigraph an original print, even the copies signed by Shepard. The serigraph is a $2,000 print and you can still buy the offset from the Syracuse site for $14.00. If you are so sure that I am wrong then go buy one for $14.00 and try to resell it for $2,000 calling it an original and see what kind of respect or support you get from the members of this forum. If you were really trying to fulfill your responsibility as a respected authoritative voice and administrator on this forum then you would at least acknowledge that my effort to seek the truth in ebay listings, especially listings from members of this forum, is an honest effort even if you feel that the effort is fruitless, which it obviously is. But instead you mock me and use a stupid metaphor about cleaning up after me. Your time would be better spent cleaning up after yourself.

From the "Print" section of this site:
Shepard was asked to help get the word out about Syracuse Cultural Workers,... Shepard was more than happy to help by lending one of his most popular images to spread their message. Originally a silkscreen print, the Peace Girl image has now been made into an Offset Print. The poster is printed on a thick stock and comes with the Syracuse Cultural Workers info printed at the bottom of the print. Unfortunately we are all sold out of our inventory but if you miss out on the print, don't stress, you can still find some available at http://www.syrculturalworkers.com...Note: Some elements are different than the original silkscreen print.
Jerry @ Ducky Waddle's Emporium
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Re: Re:

Post by bigstrunso »

Image
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by MrMurk »

jshea wrote:
jwaddle wrote:The fact that you don't agree does not make me wrong.


And that, Jerry, is why people are consantly feuding with you. You don't debate people. You merely tell them they are wrong, even where the issue is entirely subjective. That is why your posts are consistently filled with words like "arrogant" and "jerk." You do not respect the opinions of other people, presumably because you feel your knowledge and experience are more compelling.

And on an unrelated note, I'm not the enemy. I've been a fan of your store for over a year, as evidenced by my thread in 'off-site commerce' that consistently advertises newly posted prints on your site. I spent more than $2,000 on your website in the last ~15 months. But to be honest, your ego has gotten to be too much. Enjoy the loss of business.

I'm not debating, I'm just telling you.


Now thats a wake up call.
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Post by stickee »

how come nearly every Hope print is marked up as an original on Ebay and no one is crying about that?

And if in a few weeks time an 18x24 serigraph comes out of that image is that a reproduction or an original as it was after the offset edition?

I would consider all of these prints as reproductions as it is not the original piece and only comes in contact with the artist for him/her to sign it.




I don't understand why people have phobias against offsets they can look great if done right and have more detail and in the same respect a screen print can look crappy if it is not set out well and is off registration with dodgy colour seperation etc
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Post by stickee »

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0224960127

You are bidding on 5 OBAMA "HOPE" STICKERS created by Shepord Fairey for Barack Obama's 2008 Presidential Campaign.

These extremely rare and beautiful stickers are in MINT CONDITION and measure 4" x 6". They have a glossy finish and are on high quality paper. These are absolutely impossible to find. I got these from my friend that helped distribute the posters throughout LA.


now that is misleading and he claims these are original and not repros too......now how come you are not making a point about this guy getting ripped off? Is it cos he is not making a healthy wedge? well he certainly has a good mark up %wise

I think a lot of people would be scared to put repro in their description 'cos as pointed out already it makes it sound like an homemade inkjet or a xerox job


4095 items found in: Prints (Save this search)
Show only: Original/Reproduction: Original Print, Print Type: Lithograph Show all

I see there are currently 4095 scammers on ebay.com in the prints section alone....
Last edited by stickee on Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by circa77 »

Not siding with anyone here just stating my opinion. To me the auction is misleading. Any person new to print collecting could be misled by the wording "original print". It appears that "original print" is being defined differently by many people here, but to me it should not be used to describe an offset lithograph. Offset lithos are more like movie posters and original prints are more like serigraphs or etchings; my opinion. To say that someone should research "prints" before spending $355 does not justify writing deceitful auction information; again, my opinion.
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Re: Re:

Post by stickee »

jwaddle wrote:
admonkey wrote: And you, Jerry, are being evasive.


I'm not being evasive and you are not being genuine. I am not going to give you the opportunity to pick my words apart one at a time. I can picture you salivating just waiting for the oportunity. You are smart enough to fully understand the truth in what I say. The fact that you are badgering me says more about how you feel about me than the truth you supposedly seek. You are just being hypocritical and you deserve no respect from me for that role you play and I emphasize the word PLAY. The offset lithographs on my site are listed as offset lithographs and the limestone lithographs on my site are listed as genuine stone lithographs. No deception there. The easiest way for me to make my point is with the Peace Girl print. Are any of you willing to call the Syracuse Cultural Workers Offset Reproduction of the Original Peace Girl Serigraph an original print, even the copies signed by Shepard. The serigraph is a $2,000 print and you can still buy the offset from the Syracuse site for $14.00. If you are so sure that I am wrong then go buy one for $14.00 and try to resell it for $2,000 calling it an original and see what kind of respect or support you get from the members of this forum. If you were really trying to fulfill your responsibility as a respected authoritative voice and administrator on this forum then you would at least acknowledge that my effort to seek the truth in ebay listings, especially listings from members of this forum, is an honest effort even if you feel that the effort is fruitless, which it obviously is. But instead you mock me and use a stupid metaphor about cleaning up after me. Your time would be better spent cleaning up after yourself.

From the "Print" section of this site:
Shepard was asked to help get the word out about Syracuse Cultural Workers,... Shepard was more than happy to help by lending one of his most popular images to spread their message. Originally a silkscreen print, the Peace Girl image has now been made into an Offset Print. The poster is printed on a thick stock and comes with the Syracuse Cultural Workers info printed at the bottom of the print. Unfortunately we are all sold out of our inventory but if you miss out on the print, don't stress, you can still find some available at http://www.syrculturalworkers.com...Note: Some elements are different than the original silkscreen print.





FROM PEEL MAGAZIE WEBSITE

OBEY PEEL Shepard Fairey Print $45.00



Click to enlarge

Only 3 prints per household please

Numbered Edition of 250
Two color print silkscreened on heavy archival paper
15" x 22" Hand printed by Peripheral Media Projects

Shepard worked over the cover of PEEL #7 to create this extremely high quality silkscreen print.


Current Reviews: 1

This product was added to our catalog on Sunday 21 January, 2007.

FROM DUCKYWADDLES

PEEL (BLK-9142)

"PEEL", Shepard Fairey, Serigraph, 2007, Limited edition of 250, signed by the artist. 15"X22" A quality prin t on archival rag with deckled edges.

Our Price: $150.00

Item in stock!


Thats one of the ones I found on your site that you have "correctly" called a serigraph
Is that 'cos you are trying to get "respect" from collectors by charging over 3 times the price you can buy it from the original website for? :roll:

How come virtually all of your "serigraphs" are listed as screenprints and not one of your lithographs you have labled as a reproduction??? hmmmm

practise what you preach
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Post by slidingaround »

Jerry in a previous thread i think it was the Numbered V's AP one, you had a go at a new member for not doing his research! Let me ask you, what is the difference here? Should'nt the buyers have done there research and known that the edition of 750 is the offest version?
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Post by illyanadmc »

here's what i don't understand... how is the offset not an original? it was produced and distributed by obey giant, and is signed by shepard and numbered. in my mind, that makes it as much of an original print as the silkscreen version, which is also signed by shepard and numbered - the only differences are the print sizes, run sizes, and printing techniques used. both prints are equally legit, even if the silkscreen is the more desirable version.

also, i am not sure if you've ever sold on ebay, but the text you're being so nitpicky about ("original print") is not something the seller actually typed into the auction description. when you list a print on ebay, there is a series of drop-down boxes from which you select pertinent information. one of them is "original/reproduction" and the choices are: original print, artwork reproduction, and unknown. which of these do you think the seller should have chosen? artwork reproduction? if the lithograph is a reproduction of original artwork, then so is the silkscreen - both are reproductions of the original art pieces that shepard has made for gallery shows, correct? you cannot count one type of print as "original" without counting the other type as such, nor can you call one type a "reproduction" without being able to make the same argument about the other.

it seems to me that you are doing your darndest to create controversy here. why pick on this particular seller, when there are so many other auctions like this on ebay (and, also, those with ACTUAL misleading information)? did you recognize the seller's username as being one from the forum, so you knew he would feel compelled to reply to you here?
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Post by whyhoo »

offset = original print

silkscreen = original print

UNLESS you're on this site discussing the original guns and roses print vs. the offset. in that case the "original" applies only to the silkscreen, since in the relative space of this particular silkscreen vs. this particular offset, the silkscreen is the original one (the one that came first).

in the case of this auction listing, the print is just as original as ANY other print that fairey does.

practice what you preach - let's see you start listing "reproduction" next to all of the offsets on your site if you're so durn worried about it.
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Re: Re:

Post by ipath2003 »

stickee wrote:
jwaddle wrote:
admonkey wrote: And you, Jerry, are being evasive.


I'm not being evasive and you are not being genuine. I am not going to give you the opportunity to pick my words apart one at a time. I can picture you salivating just waiting for the oportunity. You are smart enough to fully understand the truth in what I say. The fact that you are badgering me says more about how you feel about me than the truth you supposedly seek. You are just being hypocritical and you deserve no respect from me for that role you play and I emphasize the word PLAY. The offset lithographs on my site are listed as offset lithographs and the limestone lithographs on my site are listed as genuine stone lithographs. No deception there. The easiest way for me to make my point is with the Peace Girl print. Are any of you willing to call the Syracuse Cultural Workers Offset Reproduction of the Original Peace Girl Serigraph an original print, even the copies signed by Shepard. The serigraph is a $2,000 print and you can still buy the offset from the Syracuse site for $14.00. If you are so sure that I am wrong then go buy one for $14.00 and try to resell it for $2,000 calling it an original and see what kind of respect or support you get from the members of this forum. If you were really trying to fulfill your responsibility as a respected authoritative voice and administrator on this forum then you would at least acknowledge that my effort to seek the truth in ebay listings, especially listings from members of this forum, is an honest effort even if you feel that the effort is fruitless, which it obviously is. But instead you mock me and use a stupid metaphor about cleaning up after me. Your time would be better spent cleaning up after yourself.

From the "Print" section of this site:
Shepard was asked to help get the word out about Syracuse Cultural Workers,... Shepard was more than happy to help by lending one of his most popular images to spread their message. Originally a silkscreen print, the Peace Girl image has now been made into an Offset Print. The poster is printed on a thick stock and comes with the Syracuse Cultural Workers info printed at the bottom of the print. Unfortunately we are all sold out of our inventory but if you miss out on the print, don't stress, you can still find some available at http://www.syrculturalworkers.com...Note: Some elements are different than the original silkscreen print.





FROM PEEL MAGAZIE WEBSITE

OBEY PEEL Shepard Fairey Print $45.00



Click to enlarge

Only 3 prints per household please

Numbered Edition of 250
Two color print silkscreened on heavy archival paper
15" x 22" Hand printed by Peripheral Media Projects

Shepard worked over the cover of PEEL #7 to create this extremely high quality silkscreen print.


Current Reviews: 1

This product was added to our catalog on Sunday 21 January, 2007.

FROM DUCKYWADDLES

PEEL (BLK-9142)

"PEEL", Shepard Fairey, Serigraph, 2007, Limited edition of 250, signed by the artist. 15"X22" A quality prin t on archival rag with deckled edges.

Our Price: $150.00

Item in stock!


Thats one of the ones I found on your site that you have "correctly" called a serigraph
Is that 'cos you are trying to get "respect" from collectors by charging over 3 times the price you can buy it from the original website for? :roll:

How come virtually all of your "serigraphs" are listed as screenprints and not one of your lithographs you have labled as a reproduction??? hmmmm

practise what you preach


Served! :D
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Re:

Post by illyanadmc »

whyhoo wrote:UNLESS you're on this site discussing the original guns and roses print vs. the offset. in that case the "original" applies only to the silkscreen, since in the relative space of this particular silkscreen vs. this particular offset, the silkscreen is the original one (the one that came first).


exactly my point! if you are directly comparing the two print runs, one came first (in this case), so that run would be the "original" run. but that doesn't make the lithograph run any less "original," in terms of it being an obey giant print.

jerry, what if the lithograph run had been released, and a few months later a silkscreen version was released? would the silkscreen run have to be listed on ebay as a reproduction, because it is not the "original" first run of prints?
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Re:

Post by robotoil »

illyanadmc wrote:how is the offset not an original? it was produced and distributed by obey giant, and is signed by shepard and numbered. in my mind, that makes it as much of an original print as the silkscreen version, which is also signed by shepard and numbered - the only differences are the print sizes, run sizes, and printing techniques used. both prints are equally legit, even if the silkscreen is the more desirable version.


Agreed.

Isn't there a drop down on eBay to specify "Serigraph" or "Lithograph"? I don't think either was chosen. Some sellers leave this blank because they are confused by the definitions. To me, it could be both an original from OG and a litho at the same time. Those in the know would see the large size of the print and the edition as signs that it was the litho, not the screenprint. In any event, I consider this an "original" in the sense that it came from OG and is not a kinkos.
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Re: Re:

Post by rhombus_77 »

robotoil wrote:
illyanadmc wrote:how is the offset not an original? it was produced and distributed by obey giant, and is signed by shepard and numbered. in my mind, that makes it as much of an original print as the silkscreen version, which is also signed by shepard and numbered - the only differences are the print sizes, run sizes, and printing techniques used. both prints are equally legit, even if the silkscreen is the more desirable version.


Agreed.

Isn't there a drop down on eBay to specify "Serigraph" or "Lithograph"? I don't think either was chosen. Some sellers leave this blank because they are confused by the definitions. To me, it could be both an original from OG and a litho at the same time. Those in the know would see the large size of the print and the edition as signs that it was the litho, not the screenprint. In any event, I consider this an "original" in the sense that it came from OG and is not a kinkos.



I just listed a print and it seems that they have changed how it is set up. I couldn't access the button for "print type" for my auction (it was grayed out).
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Re: Re:

Post by admonkey »

jwaddle wrote:I can picture you salivating just waiting for the oportunity.


You can picture me naked sitting in jam for all I care, Jerry; it does me no harm.

You've come here-- once again-- to berate a member, this time over the non-issue of the words "original" and "reproduction" in regards to the selling of Shepard's lithographic prints. Yet, and here is one of the sad ironies of this whole thread, the word "reproduction" does not appear next to, or within the descriptions of, any of the Shepard Fairey lithographs featured on your own site. Exactly zero of them.

So what is the issue then, since you obviously don't adhere to the policy you're loudly espousing here? Is it that the seller failed to use the word "lithographic" in his description? The word silkscreen (or serigraph) wasn't used, either.

You say it would be incumbent on the novice buyer to research the fact that the larger print size (area) and run (edition) would indicate the printing technique used. Frankly, it would be incumbent on the novice buyer to research the difference between lithographic and screenprinting processes, too, and then form a preference for one or the other, possibly even after doing additional research into the selling and price trends of each. Try as I might, I can't find an area on your site that attempts to educate buyers in the difference.

So, that settled too, I ask again, what is the issue here? Is it that the seller was able to sell the piece for so much at auction? The previous high was from three months ago and sold for roughly $50 less than the disputed auction. Not a large difference at all, particularly given the time since elapsed. (And I should point out that the previous high-selling auction clearly stated it was for a lithograph: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0170519060 ). But surely the quibbling over what someone makes on the sale of a print can't be the issue (and for reasons I'd think would be rather obvious to you), particularly in an auction environment.

So if the issue isn't a lack of "policy" you yourself don't follow, if the issue isn't a full and thorough effort to educate the novice buyer on every aspect of the art-buying and print-making world and if the issue isn't the final price the seller was able to procure in a highly-trafficked auction, what is the issue, Jerry?

Is it that you sent the seller a nasty-gram through eBay's messaging service and it was replied to in kind?

That seems rather petty, don't you think?
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Re:

Post by djsp »

stickee wrote:
I would consider all of these prints as reproductions as it is not the original piece and only comes in contact with the artist for him/her to sign it.



Not to split hairs, but Shepard doesn't hand print any of the weekly screen prints. He hasn't for a while from what I understand.
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by lepublicnme »

all that thread sounds to me like fvcking flies (as we say in French : "enculage de mouches") and I'm gonna give the flies a last hard assault !!

these prints are not the same design... so which one is original ?? both are orignal !

the original screenprinted version ?
Image

or the original offset version ?
Image

plus the fact that offset and Lithography are absolutely diffrent technics !!

offset printing
lithograpy printing

XXXXX
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Post by Patillac13 »

I guess I see offsets on eBay with "Original" selected not "Reproduction", but they usually say "offset" or "lithograph" somewhere in the title or description. I would expect Obey offsets to be checked as originals, if it said reproduction, I'd be hesitant (that's just my take).

From my limited collecting experience, but borderline Obey obsession, I knew at first glance it was the offset version (because of the logo position), but if I was going to spend over $300 on anything and I didn't know anything about it, I would look into it, for sure.

There was someone right after it sold out that listed a Bob Mould screenprint and list it as a 30+ inches lithograph on eBay, so I think bigstrunso's Guns and Roses offset listing was fine. There are plenty of people who are providing bogus info (who knows if it's intentional or not), the one in question didn't seem odd AT ALL when I looked at it.
Last edited by Patillac13 on Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by tpeazy »

I remember seeing this and thinking that whoever was bidding so high on this offset print is a bit of a mug. I don't think the seller has done anything wrong.
It's up to the buyer to educate themselves. I learnt that from our very own Jezza Waddle :evil:
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Post by dirtyd0369 »

poor Jerry... all he needs to do is add IMO to his posts and it would be all cool. This is his opinion and everyone else has their opinion. IMO the ebay listing is fine. I don't think he went out of his way to decieve anyone.
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Post by conartstudio »

jwaddle wrote:You are just being hypocritical and you deserve no respect from me for that role you play and I emphasize the word PLAY.


spoken as if you have ever given anyone here respect....

jerry make funny, hahaha.
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Post by bigstrunso »

illyanadmc wrote:here's what i don't understand... how is the offset not an original? it was produced and distributed by obey giant, and is signed by shepard and numbered. in my mind, that makes it as much of an original print as the silkscreen version, which is also signed by shepard and numbered - the only differences are the print sizes, run sizes, and printing techniques used. both prints are equally legit, even if the silkscreen is the more desirable version.

also, i am not sure if you've ever sold on ebay, but the text you're being so nitpicky about ("original print") is not something the seller actually typed into the auction description. when you list a print on ebay, there is a series of drop-down boxes from which you select pertinent information. one of them is "original/reproduction" and the choices are: original print, artwork reproduction, and unknown. which of these do you think the seller should have chosen? artwork reproduction? if the lithograph is a reproduction of original artwork, then so is the silkscreen - both are reproductions of the original art pieces that shepard has made for gallery shows, correct? you cannot count one type of print as "original" without counting the other type as such, nor can you call one type a "reproduction" without being able to make the same argument about the other.

it seems to me that you are doing your darndest to create controversy here. why pick on this particular seller, when there are so many other auctions like this on ebay (and, also, those with ACTUAL misleading information)? did you recognize the seller's username as being one from the forum, so you knew he would feel compelled to reply to you here?



Wow, I thought I had a few essays to write this morning, but a couple of the posts on here spell out my thoughts exactly.

Jerry's sent me a "nasty-gram" last night and let me know that if I was such an expert shipper that I should know this is not an original print, but a reproduction (he also kindly told me that I was ignorant and deceitful). I explained why I disagreed and Jerry went on to rant for a bit more. I then explained that since I am an expert shipper, I had a few things to share with him and his horrible shipping methods (i.e. thin, very small diameter tubes that cause him to roll prints to the point of occasionally damaging them) and he replied that he insures everything,so it sholdn't be a problem if they are damaged :?: ?

Anyway, I think that is why Jerry came on here to attempt and stir the pot, but I'm not 100% sure.
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Post by tpeazy »

Dude, I would just forget about Waddle and go buy yourself a beer with all that money you made.
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Post by mrxscarface28 »

I say neither of these things are completely" original" since the image was appropriated from the Chinese propaganda poster.

ImageImage

I don't care what anybody else's opinion of it is, I'm just saying that this is an endless argument that has no answer, unless a Webster's Dictionary for Art definitions comes out.

Can't we just all agree to disagree?
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Re: Screenprint, Lithograph or Conniption?

Post by PDC »

lepublicnme wrote:
plus the fact that offset and Lithography are absolutely diffrent technics !!


XXXXX


Different technics but used together when printing, hence, Offset Lithography.
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