personally identifying information

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whyhoo
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personally identifying information

Post by whyhoo »

when someone posts a person's personally identifying information(personally identifying information) without their consent, moderators or admins will remove the offending post. makes sense.

what exactly IS considered personally identifying information? the list starts off with the obvious things: name, social security number, phone number, address... email address? twitter page? friendster profile? see where this is going? the definition of what you consider personally identifying information i bet is evolving as you read this.

if my email address, my twitter feed, my facebook page, or my ebay id are broadcast without my consent, there is one more question that remains as to whether or not these types of information can be considered personally identifying to me, whyhoo: are these profiles linked in some way to my forum handle, whyhoo? if any of these things are associated without my consent, i contend that my personally identifying information HAS been broadcast and the information posted and associated with my forum handle should be removed.

i have raised this point to more than one person tasked with policing this forum. i was not privy to the conversation that took place among the mods/admins, but the ultimate decision was that an ebay handle is NOT personally identifying information.

i realize many people on this board regularly link to their ebay auctions as well as their personal web pages. that's all up to you - personally i choose for my online persona, whyhoo, NOT to be associated with any of what i consider to be my personally identifying information.

please be assured: there's no egg on my face. i could not care less about what anyone thinks of what i do with my personal property. i will do what i please, just as you should too. it's only when i believe there's a chance that my privacy has been compromised that i would complain about someone posting a link to an ebay auction in an attempt to "call me out".

<-- insert beaten dead horse frolicking with a friendly dolphin here -->

as long as you are willing to engage in a transaction with someone on ebay, you are privy to their contact information at your request. an ebay handle IS personally identifying information... unless of course the information you've entered into ebay is not accurate.

people that know me on this board know what my ebay handle is - they know what my full name is... heck they even know my home address and phone number and have pictures of me. but they have the common courtesy not to broadcast any of this information publicly without my consent. moderators and admins are here to enforce common courtesy when some people clearly show a lack of it, and i think this board is fairly free of a lot of the stupid stuff you see on other online forums - kudos to the team that does the clean up.

but i think there needs to be a serious reconsideration of what is considered personally identifying information - especially when the context is clearly malicious, the disclosure of the alleged personally identifying information is non consensual, and the disclosure is not contributing to the discussion at hand.

mods/admins, doesn't it make sense to err on the side of caution when new situations arise?

i couldn't help but smell a hint of "oh you're embarrassed that someone posted your ebay auction you opportunist" in the responses i received from one mod in particular, and i can't help but think that that idea has sullied an otherwise seemingly solid process of reasoning.

what does everyone else think about this?
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Post by Gigantico »

Unfortunately, there aren't any rules you could pose that will keep people from being pr!cks.

That being said, what exactly is at stake by revealing your ebay handle, besides potential embarassment (honest question)? Maybe someone with bad intentions could place a bid on your item just to get additional personal info about you(I'm not exactly sure how this works)?
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Post by submit »

sounds like your issue is with ebay and how they release "private" information. Although most of the responsibility lay with you. You joined a public auction trading site and you joined a public art forum so you are putting yourself out there to be known. You are utilizing these outlets to conduct business, the idea of remaining anonymous is really unrealistic. Your cover got blowed up, so what do you want anyone else to do about it? how is it my or anyone here's responsibility to maintain your anonymity?
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Re:

Post by whyhoo »

Gigantico wrote:what exactly is at stake by revealing your ebay handle...Maybe someone with bad intentions could place a bid on your item just to get additional personal info about you...
that's almost how it works - if someone engages in a transaction with you, they can request your contact information.
submit wrote:sounds like your issue is with ebay and how they release "private" information. Although most responsibility lay with you. You joined a public auction trading site and you joined a public art forum so you are putting yourself out there to be known. You are utilizing these outlets to conduct business, the idea of remaining anonymous is really unrealistic. You're cover got blowed up, so what do you want anyone else to do about it? how is it my or anyone here's responsibility to maintain your anonymity?
there's no "cover" - like i said, i could not care less what anyone thinks about what i do with my personal property. but it's up to me to decide whether or not what i consider to be personally identifiable information is associated with an anonymous forum handle. and it's up to you to delete this information when someone maliciously posts it.

if someone came on here and posted a link to my facebook page (if i had one) and said "ha ha whyhoo you and your stupid coffee every morning, who cares about how many sugars are in it, really?" would you remove the link to the facebook page at my request?

and again more of the same sentiment that is clouding this issue: "oh you're just upset because someone called you out"... for real? i'm upset that someone has potentially posted personally identifying information, and that no one else seems to want to do anything about it.
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Re: Re:

Post by admonkey »

whyhoo wrote:
Gigantico wrote:what exactly is at stake by revealing your ebay handle...Maybe someone with bad intentions could place a bid on your item just to get additional personal info about you...
that's almost how it works - if someone engages in a transaction with you, they can request your contact information.
How would what we do, or do not do, here on TheGiant affect a buyer's ability to pull seller info on eBay?
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Re: Re:

Post by whyhoo »

admonkey wrote:
whyhoo wrote:
Gigantico wrote:what exactly is at stake by revealing your ebay handle...Maybe someone with bad intentions could place a bid on your item just to get additional personal info about you...
that's almost how it works - if someone engages in a transaction with you, they can request your contact information.
How would what we do, or do not do, here on TheGiant affect a buyer's ability to pull seller info on eBay?
How would what you do, or do not do, here on TheGiant affect a person's ability to pull my picture from my facebook page? well by allowing someone to maliciously post a link to my facebook page, you have enabled others to do the same. thegiant.org has nothing to do with facebook, but i'm pretty certain that if someone posted my picture or a link to my profile without my consent, you would remove it at my request.
whyhoo wrote:if someone came on here and posted a link to my facebook page (if i had one) and said "ha ha whyhoo you and your stupid coffee every morning, who cares about how many sugars are in it, really?" would you remove the link to the facebook page at my request?
Last edited by whyhoo on Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by illyanadmc »

i didn't want to get involved in this discussion, as i was one of the admins involved in the original discussion with whyhoo via PM, but i do want to chime in about the facebook comment. i, for one, would not remove any links to facebook pages, as any personal information on a facebook user's page can be restricted from the view of anyone who is not a friend of that facebook user - you can lockdown your facebook page so tightly that other users (who aren't your friends) can't even click on your username when you post a comment on a friend's post.

in order for an ebay user to gain access to your address, phone number, email address, etc., that person must be involved in a transaction with you. if someone fraudulently wins one of your ebay auctions in order to gain that information and has no interest in actually buying the item, that person has committed fraud and is in violation of ebay's user agreement. if someone is so intent on gaining access to your "personal information" that he/she will fraudulently win one of your auctions, i don't think that there's much that you (or we) can do to stop that person.
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Re: Re:

Post by admonkey »

whyhoo wrote:
admonkey wrote:
whyhoo wrote:
Gigantico wrote:what exactly is at stake by revealing your ebay handle...Maybe someone with bad intentions could place a bid on your item just to get additional personal info about you...
that's almost how it works - if someone engages in a transaction with you, they can request your contact information.
How would what we do, or do not do, here on TheGiant affect a buyer's ability to pull seller info on eBay?
How would what you do, or do not do, here on TheGiant affect a person's ability to pull my picture from my facebook page? thegiant.org has nothing to do with facebook, but i'm pretty certain that if someone posted my picture or a link to my profile without my consent, you would remove it at my request.
Not analogous.

On Facebook, if security is a concern, you can limit access to your information, tightening it all the way down to only you having access to the information. On eBay, the terms of service dictate a buyer having access to seller information, regardless of how you feel about it.

Additionally, data on Facebook that you've opened up to public (or semi-public) scrutiny is freely available. Data on eBay comes at a cost: the purchase price of whatever it is you're selling, engaging in a contract between buyer and seller.

EDIT: what illy said.
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Re:

Post by whyhoo »

illyanadmc wrote: if someone is so intent on gaining access to your "personal information" that he/she will fraudulently win one of your auctions, i don't think that there's much that you (or we) can do to stop that person.
agreed! but don't you want to err on the side of caution?
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Re: Re:

Post by Gigantico »

admonkey wrote:
whyhoo wrote:
Gigantico wrote:what exactly is at stake by revealing your ebay handle...Maybe someone with bad intentions could place a bid on your item just to get additional personal info about you...
that's almost how it works - if someone engages in a transaction with you, they can request your contact information.
How would what we do, or do not do, here on TheGiant affect a buyer's ability to pull seller info on eBay?
Not much. But perhaps by making the seller's identity known (and by allowing it to become part of the permanent dialogue), the possibility of shady activities could increase. Especially if (a) shady individual(s) has a grudge against the seller or wishes to f*ck with them in some way. What if a criminal came here with the sole intent of searching for ebay handles/people's collections/geographic location sometime in the future? People show off their collections etc. and by making the ebay handle known (aside from the seller revealing it themselves), it provides a channel for obtaining specific personal information.

(Maybe I'm just talking crazy paranoid... And I'm just playing devil's advocate)
Last edited by Gigantico on Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Re:

Post by whyhoo »

admonkey wrote:On eBay, the terms of service dictate a buyer having access to seller information, regardless of how you feel about it.
right, so then you DO agree that an ebay ID can be personally identifying information and that i have no choice in the matter other than to not have an ebay account that includes personally identifying information?
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Re: Re:

Post by whyhoo »

whyhoo wrote:
admonkey wrote:On eBay, the terms of service dictate a buyer having access to seller information, regardless of how you feel about it.
right, so then you DO agree that an ebay ID can be personally identifying information and that i have no choice in the matter other than to not have an ebay account that includes personally identifying information?
when you sign up for a phone number, you have the option of being unlisted - you also have the option of having an alias listed in the phonebook if you don't want to pay the fee for a private number.

if someone posted my phone number, and i hadn't taken advantage of either of these privacy option, would you tell me to take it up with Ma Bell?
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Post by Gigantico »

(Other side of the coin)

Man, but "calling people out" can be so funny sometimes, though.... :lol: And it can be in the spirit of what happens here/looking out for eachother, etc.
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Post by whyhoo »

Gigantico wrote:(Other side of the coin)

Man, but "calling people out" can be so funny sometimes, though.... :lol: And it can be in the spirit of what happens here/looking out for eachother, etc.
oh for sure!!!

consider the case we're discussing - is there any looking out for anyone else going on?
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Post by admonkey »

whyhoo wrote:
admonkey wrote:On eBay, the terms of service dictate a buyer having access to seller information, regardless of how you feel about it.
right, so then you DO agree that an ebay ID can be personally identifying information and that i have no choice in the matter other than to not have an ebay account that includes personally identifying information?
There are two parts to your question, and both are set on a false premise.

eBay provides certain data to buyers (should they request it) that we can not control. You agree to make that information available, should it be requested from a transacting customer, when you register as a seller with eBay.

The links required to "get information" (note that I didn't say "personally identifying information") would then be a chain from here to there, and "here" doesn't reveal the information.

(GIANT ACCOUNT) -> (KNOWN EBAY ACCOUNT) -> (TRANSACTING CUSTOMER) -> (CUSTOMER REQUEST) -> (INFO)

The information revealed through a transacting customer request is whatever info you have on file with eBay, and that information can be as "revealing" or as "opaque" as you make it. Business names, P.O. boxes, business phone numbers, etc.

An eBay ID is not personally revealing in and of itself.

The data gathered by a transacting customer, after a request for that data is made according to eBay terms of service, can be personally revealing, but only if the seller has given eBay information that is personally revealing. The options for preventing a seller account from revealing "personally identifying information" are: 1) don't sell anything, 2) close the account, 3) provide information to eBay that is not personally revealing.
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Re: Re:

Post by Gigantico »

whyhoo wrote:
Gigantico wrote:(Other side of the coin)

Man, but "calling people out" can be so funny sometimes, though.... :lol: And it can be in the spirit of what happens here/looking out for eachother, etc.
oh for sure!!!

consider the case we're discussing - is there any looking out for anyone else going on?
I think that particular user's position on this forum is well-established. :roll:
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Post by admonkey »

whyhoo wrote:
whyhoo wrote:
admonkey wrote:On eBay, the terms of service dictate a buyer having access to seller information, regardless of how you feel about it.
right, so then you DO agree that an ebay ID can be personally identifying information and that i have no choice in the matter other than to not have an ebay account that includes personally identifying information?
when you sign up for a phone number, you have the option of being unlisted - you also have the option of having an alias listed in the phonebook if you don't want to pay the fee for a private number.

if someone posted my phone number, and i hadn't taken advantage of either of these privacy option, would you tell me to take it up with Ma Bell?
See the "links in the chain" found in my earlier post. Posting a direct phone number removes all of those links and becomes direct information. Additionally, as I told you in an earlier exchange, the Ma Bell example is also not analogous as 1) it is direct information and, 2) Ma Bell doesn't require someone to purchase an item from you before divulging the information.
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Re: Re:

Post by admonkey »

Gigantico wrote:
whyhoo wrote:
Gigantico wrote:(Other side of the coin)

Man, but "calling people out" can be so funny sometimes, though.... :lol: And it can be in the spirit of what happens here/looking out for eachother, etc.
oh for sure!!!

consider the case we're discussing - is there any looking out for anyone else going on?
I think that particular user's position on this forum is well-established. :roll:
This is the message I sent Whyhoo after reaching a decision and it provides a little detail. Regardless of which personalities are involved-- and what we think about them-- we strive to remain neutral.

"I don't have a problem with you. Not one. In fact, I personally dislike Blazed and it is difficult for me to remain neutral in just about anything he does.

We discussed your request in the moderator forum. We don't view eBay accounts as being "personally identifiable information." eBay has their own rules you agree to when you sign up for a seller account, and it's up to them to reveal whatever they want, however they want. Deleting posts here won't change eBay policy. If it's that much of a concern to you, you might want to consider closing your seller account.

You were given a warning because when told to take the discussion to PM or to GvG, you didn't. Blazed and Badbrains were not given warnings because they did not continue the "discussion" in the inappropriate forum, whereas you did.

You're free to delete your own posts (just like Blazed is free to delete his own posts), but there's no rule violation reason to mod-remove Blazed's posts with cause, regardless of a level of embarrassment you might feel at having the flag auction called out for public view.

We sympathize with your request but won't be taking action on it.

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Re: Re:

Post by whyhoo »

admonkey wrote: (GIANT ACCOUNT) -> (KNOWN EBAY ACCOUNT) -> (TRANSACTING CUSTOMER) -> (CUSTOMER REQUEST) -> (INFO)
"here" enables anyone to follow the chain once the ebay handle is attached to my forum handle. that's the issue at hand. someone could see my ebay auctions and plan to track me down and steal the valuable items in my possession. my art collection (or is it inventory?!) is at risk because of your definition of direct information.
admonkey wrote: ...regardless of a level of embarrassment you might feel at having the flag auction called out for public view.
and there's a prime example of the feelings that are clouding this issue. i believe emotions are getting in the way of logic in this case.


things are changing every day at an exponential rate... what you consider non direct information today WILL BE direct information tomorrow because of technology.
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whyhoo wrote:
admonkey wrote: (GIANT ACCOUNT) -> (KNOWN EBAY ACCOUNT) -> (TRANSACTING CUSTOMER) -> (CUSTOMER REQUEST) -> (INFO)
"here" enables anyone to follow the chain once the ebay handle is attached to my forum handle. that's the issue at hand. someone could see my ebay auctions and plan to track me down and steal the valuable items in my possession. my art collection (or is it inventory?!) is at risk because of your definition of direct information.
You place your "inventory" at hypothetical risk by providing personally revealing information to eBay and agreeing to their terms of service when you become a seller, not because of our definition of direct information.


whyhoo wrote:
admonkey wrote: ...regardless of a level of embarrassment you might feel at having the flag auction called out for public view.
and there's a prime example of the feelings that are clouding this issue. i believe emotions are getting in the way of logic in this case.


things are changing every day at an exponential rate... what you consider non direct information today WILL BE direct information tomorrow because of technology.
I disagree. There was no emotion involved in our decision. It was calm, studied and neutral as anyone who participated in it will tell you.

If anything, your emotions could possibly be clouding your judgement. For example, earlier that same day an eBay seller account was linked to a forum user (the auction involved a "Shepard Fairey-like" mural piece that has since been removed by the seller).

Not a peep was said at the time about a threat to "personally identifying information."

Yes, things are changing every day, and those of us who "live" in this online world try to keep abreast of it and we, moderators and admins, strive to do our best by the membership here.

As we said in making our decision, we sympathize with your request. We simply don't see the issue as you do and won't be taking action on it.
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Post by nixon451 »

Would you have us delete and ban any post along the lines of, "I had a bad experience with Ebay user so and so...", because I doubt there is a forum anywhere that does that, and that sort of information sharing is a really basic function of any community.
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Re: personally identifying information

Post by whyhoo »

AM, and nixon, you both are failing to see the distinction between posting a link to an ebay auction, and posting a link to an ebay auction with a finger pointed at a forum handle.
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Re: personally identifying information

Post by admonkey »

whyhoo wrote:AM, and nixon, you both are failing to see the distinction between posting a link to an ebay auction, and posting a link to an ebay auction with a finger pointed at a forum handle.
Apparently so did you, earlier that very same day.

Our position has remained constant; yours appears to be in flux.
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Re: personally identifying information

Post by whyhoo »

admonkey wrote:
whyhoo wrote:AM, and nixon, you both are failing to see the distinction between posting a link to an ebay auction, and posting a link to an ebay auction with a finger pointed at a forum handle.
Apparently so did you, earlier that very same day.

Our position has remained constant; yours appears to be in flux.
really? please point out where i have linked someone's forum handle to an ebay account.
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Re: personally identifying information

Post by admonkey »

whyhoo wrote:
admonkey wrote:
whyhoo wrote:AM, and nixon, you both are failing to see the distinction between posting a link to an ebay auction, and posting a link to an ebay auction with a finger pointed at a forum handle.
Apparently so did you, earlier that very same day.

Our position has remained constant; yours appears to be in flux.
really? please point out where i have linked someone's forum handle to an ebay account.
I don't believe you have (though there was a "Stickboy/eBay" discussion from you a while back, which could perhaps be considered if not apples to apples, then apples to pears). But you also seemed to lack any sort of moral indignation and outrage when a forum name was linked to an eBay seller account (the "Shepard Fairey-like mural" piece) earlier in the day. I'm sure a quick forum search would provide several other instances in which eBay seller accounts were linked to forum names, events during which you failed to raise similar objections (an occurrence with bostonlongstroke springs to mind as does the situation surrounding a fake stencil).
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