flipping discussion split from revolutions thread

UPS got you down? eBay making you cry? Need to rant? Do it here.
Post Reply
woodyland
Punk
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:41 am

flipping discussion split from revolutions thread

Post by woodyland »

admin note: split from this topic: http://forum.thegiant.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=22468
halopigg wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Shepard-Fairey-MOON ... 533wt_1141

and the metal set.... I hope Obey has records (heh) of who bought what set as both these people have listed the number they got....
What? Is there a rule or code against selling something in your possession? "Oh, I didn't get mine so I hope Fairey can find a way to stick it to these jerk that waited in line for hours to get theirs. Yeah, that'll really make my Sunday (snort, grovel)".
Hunt & crucify! Hoorah!
User avatar
halopigg
Giant
Posts: 4943
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 3:11 pm
Location: LA!

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by halopigg »

you had me until the snort, grovel. :-/
Who's got my old stickers?
User avatar
halopigg
Giant
Posts: 4943
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 3:11 pm
Location: LA!

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by halopigg »

woodyland wrote: What? Is there a rule or code against selling something in your possession?

and yes, with Shep's fine art pieces purchased from Subliminal you sign an agreement not to sell the piece for a minimum of three years.
Who's got my old stickers?
User avatar
TheOmethod
Ministry of Information
Posts: 1694
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:45 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by TheOmethod »

halopigg wrote:
woodyland wrote: What? Is there a rule or code against selling something in your possession?

and yes, with Shep's fine art pieces purchased from Subliminal you sign an agreement not to sell the piece for a minimum of three years.

I am already on the case!
ritedere
Giant
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:21 pm

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by ritedere »

TheOmethod wrote:
halopigg wrote:
woodyland wrote: What? Is there a rule or code against selling something in your possession?

and yes, with Shep's fine art pieces purchased from Subliminal you sign an agreement not to sell the piece for a minimum of three years.

I am already on the case!
:D
User avatar
wiredbeans
Propaganda Engineer
Posts: 978
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:35 am
Location: New York

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by wiredbeans »

somebody's gonna get a spankin. ouch.
User avatar
spagucci1
Giant
Posts: 5234
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:18 pm

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by spagucci1 »

Yes there are unspoken rules. Flipping something the day after you got it is not appreciated. Especially when you come here to get more info on how to score, then immediately flip it. You are not gonna gain any friends if you are one of these flippers on eBay, or were planning on flipping.
woodyland wrote:
halopigg wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Shepard-Fairey-MOON ... 533wt_1141

and the metal set.... I hope Obey has records (heh) of who bought what set as both these people have listed the number they got....
What? Is there a rule or code against selling something in your possession? "Oh, I didn't get mine so I hope Fairey can find a way to stick it to these jerk that waited in line for hours to get theirs. Yeah, that'll really make my Sunday (snort, grovel)".
woodyland
Punk
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:41 am

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by woodyland »

First of all, that's not mine on ebay but I am defending that sellers right to sell his possession whether he owns it for 5 minutes or five decades. And yes, I discovered this site yesterday & came here looking for information. Regardless, I'm over @ EB so I know how newbies are treated that speak w/a voice. I have yet to be rude, condescending, or break any rules whether written or unspoken. As far as signing an agreement waiver not to sell for three years, now here comes the condescending part, you're getting it directly from the horse, I signed no such document. And if I didn't I highly doubt anyone else did including the sellers of the two sets available on the web.

Look, when I first got into this hobby I too got upset @ flippers, resellers what~have~you. But I quickly realized that possession is 99% of the argument. The 1% is based on jealousy & envy. Let's face it, if you were local or say could afford to fly in from NYC or wherever & you have the grand to plunk down as an investment you'd be there. And if you could lay out the cash for multiple sets there's not a chance in the world you wouldn't try & recoup your initial investment.

I mean no disrespect to the long suffering members here but bitching about selling ones possession is just that~bitching.

By the way, for what it's worth, I've been here less than 24 hours & I'm already a donor. And the snort grunt was not from me but from my imagination of the whiner.

And now I'll end this on a positive:My favorite of the set is the ode to folkies w/acoustic guitar. That is one sweet image.
Hunt & crucify! Hoorah!
woodyland
Punk
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:41 am

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by woodyland »

vvk wrote:
woodyland wrote:
By the way, for what it's worth, I've been here less than 24 hours & I'm already a donor.
let me be the first to say thank you
Thanks vvk.
Hey spag(x~that w/everybody in its [his] place), I'm making friends already, besides the fine folks from last night :mrgreen:
Hunt & crucify! Hoorah!
User avatar
spagucci1
Giant
Posts: 5234
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:18 pm

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by spagucci1 »

woodyland wrote:
vvk wrote:
woodyland wrote:
By the way, for what it's worth, I've been here less than 24 hours & I'm already a donor.
let me be the first to say thank you
Thanks vvk.
Hey spag(x~that w/everybody in its [his] place), I'm making friends already, besides the fine folks from last night :mrgreen:
Well, if your looking to flip, you are deffinately not a friend of Shep nor any of the Obey crew plain and simple. Just trying to help you out bro.
woodyland
Punk
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:41 am

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by woodyland »

spagucci1 wrote:
woodyland wrote:
vvk wrote:
woodyland wrote:
By the way, for what it's worth, I've been here less than 24 hours & I'm already a donor.
let me be the first to say thank you
Thanks vvk.
Hey spag(x~that w/everybody in its [his] place), I'm making friends already, besides the fine folks from last night :mrgreen:
Well, if your looking to flip, you are deffinately not a friend of Shep nor any of the Obey crew plain and simple. Just trying to help you out bro.
Well I appreciate your concern, I really do.
Let me ask this question:Define flipping & reselling & the difference thereof. I have my opinions that I believe are pretty sound.
Here's another question:Why after every print drop are there 50 of said prints on ebay as well as a few on EB(which by the way is TOTALLY against EB's 'not in hand' rule)? And I again mean no disrespect to those folks but where are the Shep~police on those? I'm guessing 99% of the 'for sale online' items were released w/in the last three years. Okay, 94%.
Hunt & crucify! Hoorah!
User avatar
spagucci1
Giant
Posts: 5234
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:18 pm

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by spagucci1 »

Woodland- flipping is buying a product and reselling it immediately. Shep hates this and will ban you from buying his work if it is found out that you are a flipper. It is known that Obey has a ban list. As far as the 3 year rule, when people buy fine art from Shep, you have to agree that you wont sell the work for three years. The box sets are not considered fine art, that is why you didn't have to agree to anything. I understand you are new here, that is why I am alerting you to Obey's stance on flippers. Some artists don't care that their work is being flipped. Shep does not take that stance. He despises flippers because he makes his art affordable. Because the art is affordable, it has a flipabity. He does not in anyway condone the flipping of his work, he just wants it in the hands of "true fans". Like I said, I'm just trying to help you out because you are new and helping you avoid burning bridges. Enjoy your set and I hope you are not flipping it because there are plenty of members here who would have loved to been able to buy a box set.
User avatar
gpt104
Giant
Posts: 1767
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:56 pm
Location: Philly Burbs

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by gpt104 »

Newbies who speak " with a voice" are not treated any different then the other members here. But defending flipping or the flippers "right" is an unusual way to start contributing here. There are many members who hoped to own the set and enjoy it, but probably will not have the opportunity as others got it for no other reason than to make a quick buck.

Welcome to the forum. Hopefully you will find your donation was a valuable decision. There are many great discussions on all types of art and other aspecs of life.
Collection & Wants: http://forum.thegiant.org/collection/others.php?u=3093" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
woodyland
Punk
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:41 am

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by woodyland »

I would very much like to educate myself so if any one is willing & able & knowledgeable to hook me up the those links that discuss flipping vs (re)selling/trading, Shep's views & attitudes & anything else you may find useful to a newb like me I promise to not only read them but critically consider & use as building blocks for future posts & opinion.
My contribution started w/relating yesterdays events. And I don't consider selling something while in possession of it as flipping. I call it 'selling'. But I'm like a tree, I can bend w/out breaking.

Thanks for welcoming me gpt, I appreciate it. I also want to announce that all the private PM's I've received are very much appreciated as well. It's understandable that these words of support have been private & I don't blame anyone for wanting to fly under the radar.
Hunt & crucify! Hoorah!
User avatar
sas
Posse
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:01 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by sas »

This might help, below quote from Shepared in ref ebay. It is from the Policy section of the OG store:
per: http://obeygiant.com/store/help.php?section=policy

"
EBAY POLICY

EBAY'ers and EBAY Flippers are not welcomed. If suspected and caught of Ebaying prints your order will be automatically refunded and you will no longer be permitted to purchase from OBEY GIANT.

Shepard and the rest of us at OBEY are overwhelmed by the stories we hear about how much people are paying for prints on EBAY the same day as they are released on our site. We are, like most people, are disheartened and disgusted with the situation. We are taking responsibility for the Ebay situation and have taken action against those who simply purchase prints to instantly auction on Ebay for the highest price. There is a difference between a print collector who purchases a print, archives it for months, years even, then decides to barter or sell a piece with the intention of getting more cherished artwork THAN a "collector" who purchases a print then has it posted on Ebay before the print is actually received in hand or the moment they receive it the mail. We do believe such action is wrong and unjust AND we stand by what we believe and are proud of our mission to keep OBEY accessible to all.

A Message from Shepard to Ebay Flippers:

Dear Ebayer,

I think it is great that you are speaking your mind, but you are misplacing your frustration about the Obey Ebay policy. You fail to understand that my Ebay policy exists precisely to protect my valued supporters from having to pay high secondary market prices for my prints. My prints are priced well below market value because I want them to be affordable to true fans of my art. I have no problem with people collecting my prints and selling older prints to free up funds to purchase newer prints they prefer. However, some people buy the prints just to re-sell them on Ebay immediately. I call these people "flippers" and they keep a true fan of the piece from being able to purchase it at a low price. YOU are displacing people who want to keep, and not re-sell the art. For every letter like yours, I receive five that are complaints that people really loved and wanted a particular print, but it sold out too quickly. YOU force those people to buy on Ebay at a higher price. My goal is to make my work affordable to people who intend to keep the art. I am sacrificing a huge amount of money I could be making by selling the prints below market value. I do that for the people. I was broke throughout my twenties but I wanted to collect art, so I'm trying to provide that for people now. There are a lot of other supporters I'm trying to take into consideration as well. Your perspective is very selfish. Your thoughts about your "hard earned" money is very interesting. Is flipping a print on Ebay for triple, quadruple, or more of what you spent on it "hard earned"? Where were you with a financial subsidy for me in the 90's when I slept in my car in Boston or went literally without food or heat in Providence R.I. because I was pursuing my art, but failing to make enough money? I snuck free copies to make posters at Kinko's, but do you think if I got caught I would have said "but I'm entitled to free garbage because I'm an artist who has it tough"? So you work 60 hours a week... so do I, if not more. I built what I have from a $4.25 an hour skate shop job. I treat everyone fairly. I checked into your Ebay record to make sure you were not banned unfairly, and you have flipped multiple prints the week after their release before the print has even been shipped to you. For each one of those, YOU made someone else suffer. Basically, you are sensitive to your own suffering, but not to the suffering of others. Oh, and the ban policy is not based on anything other than someone being a flipper. Yes, I do believe in freedom. You are free to buy and sell whatever you want, and I am free to choose not to sell MY creations to you. Of course, you are still free to buy my work on the secondary market like you have forced others to do. There are people who will cherish a reasonably priced piece of my art and they are my priority.

Sincerely,
Shepard Fairey
"

edit..entered the full quote
User avatar
whyhoo
itsame
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 8:44 am
Location: I put on my robe and wizard hat

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by whyhoo »

I've often been accused of being an idealist... shepards stance on flipping just does not equal reality. If he REALLY wanted to do something about, he would sell hi work at market prices. But then would it sell out in 5 minutes. Would people wait in line for 8 hours to buy it? Something tells me no. I've always liked his work (since 89 to be exact), but I bought my first print with full intent to resell it. Then I bought more prints with full intention of reselling them. Then something happened... I couldn't stop buying them and I was finding it much harder to let go of these gems for a profit... so I buy a dave mathews band poster, or a tyler stout poster to support my obey habit. If you have the knowledge, by all means take advantage of it to support your habit. If you want to a professional flipper, go for it! Banning people from buying your work just makes those same people come up with ways to sneak around the ban. Anyone b!tching and whining is just upset that they didn't get to buy something for face IMHO.
on point like a decimalist?
woodyland
Punk
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:41 am

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by woodyland »

How does the market get established?

I read Shepard's response to a whiny flipper. And it serves that guy right, flipping what he doesn't have. I also noticed that only once did Mr Fairey state his case re:prints in hand. The gist of the philosophy is/was ordering a print & listing for sale online. In short, I see one definitive line:in hand & on order. All other lines are blurry & grey.

Thanks for the above post w/Shep's view. What I'd like to see & what I've read exist is Obey Official Policy & thegiant threads discussing this issue. I'm sure one day I'll run across it.

Lastly, I've uploaded this over @ EB thro' the 'add art' page. So hopefully it will be approved soon. Is there similar data here?
Hunt & crucify! Hoorah!
User avatar
jak88
Giant
Posts: 1756
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:11 am
Location: The Other Left Coast

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by jak88 »

Not to beat the proverbial horse ...

Woodland - Flipping vs. Selling is not that complicated. The issue is timing. Flipping (buy and immediate resale) is purely about quick profits. It's essentially day-trading in art. You (the generic "you") are treating the art as a commodity purely to trade for profit. Except it's a print instead of copper futures, soy beans or a stock.

OG's policy is clear about this: "There is a difference between a print collector who purchases a print, archives it for months, years even, then decides to barter or sell a piece with the intention of getting more cherished artwork." This describes most of the folks who are here, esp those who are active participants in the Forum.

As the owner of a print you have the right to sell it. Obviously. If you're just out for the buck, sell and go with God. But go elsewhere.

Two things should be underscored:

(1) This community cares about art -- esp Shep's art -- not simply as a vehicle for profits. Even those here who sell their art, and most do or will at some point mainly to finance bigger acquisitions, are not only about the money. They love the art, enjoy it, collect it, discuss it endlessly ... Yes, they also sell it on occasion.

(2) Flippers raise the costs to others who really want the art. They inject themselves into the market as unwanted middlemen between the artist and buyers who care about the art. In this case, Shep cares deeply that his art gets into the hands of people who are serious about it. He had made that clear over the years, and prices his art in a broad range to assure it happens. This applies to the box sets, just like all his other prints.

Anyway ... welcome. As you see, noboby is punished for expressing their views. But plainly this Forum is geared to those who are not driven by a flipper's mentality (can't speak to all the lurkers here).
User avatar
sas
Posse
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:01 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by sas »

It is quite clear to me what a flipper is looking at the definition from OB. Just read the part in bold. Many think a flipper is only one who lists on Ebay a print when they get confirmation from OB but before they get the print in hand (aka a pre-sale in Ebay terms). The part in bold from OB makes it quite clear that it is when a person buys the print without the print in hand and/or subsequently upon receiving it.

"There is a difference between a print collector who purchases a print, archives it for months, years even, then decides to barter or sell a piece with the intention of getting more cherished artwork THAN a "collector" who purchases a print then has it posted on Ebay before the print is actually received in hand or the moment they receive it the mail."
woodyland
Punk
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:41 am

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by woodyland »

Thanks Patillac. I'll have to work on that.

Thanks jak & sas. Those are clear & precise statements re:flipping. My only contention is where does the line exist? One week? One month? One year? While I agree it's hard to NOT call someone a flipper who receives a print & lists it the same day usually those listings are ignored because the print has taken weeks to arrive & no one notices. It's much more obvious w/these Gallery releases. Still, in hand is where I make my stand.

But let's face it, the listings that grate on most of us as well as the whole OBEY team are the ones that show up minutes after the prints are dropped. Working w/ebay I find it difficult this practice cannot be banned. This tells me that either the effort hasn't been driven by the artists or ebay doesn't care. Obviously other reasons could exist.

And over @ EB I don't see why members listing virgin dropped art can't be warned & those listings deleted. I'd do it if they need a volunteer. I can honestly say I listed an item I had just paid for & I did it once. And it sucked. My conscience got the better of me.
Hunt & crucify! Hoorah!
User avatar
sas
Posse
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:01 am
Location: Chicago

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by sas »

woodyland wrote:Thanks jak & sas. Those are clear & precise statements re:flipping. My only contention is where does the line exist? One week? One month? One year?
The answer to that is self-reflexive. If one really likes Shep, his art and what he and OG stand for, the answer should be easy. That is what Shep was saying in the above letter re ebay flippers. Would a true fan buy a print and sell it in a few weeks of delivery? Prob not, but if he/she lost his/her job and needs to thin the herd to pay the water/power bill, well we all would understand, it is a bit more grey. No one is going to say, "Well according to the rules, it is holding a print for 127.6 days, per subsection 12.4.B of the OG handbook."

I think the Potter Stewart approach is a good motto "I know it when I see it".

edit had to fix the [ ] thing that I messed up...
User avatar
bdavenport
punk
Posts: 2451
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:01 pm
Location: Conjunction Junction

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by bdavenport »

Hey all, can you take the flipping conversation elsewhere? This thread is about the art, not about the overbeat philosophy of what is an is not flipping. Giant v. Giant is a great place to continue this. It is a pain looking for info on the show/art and having to sort through yet another flipping conversation.
toobs wrote:FCUK U JOBUUUUU!!!
User avatar
TheOmethod
Ministry of Information
Posts: 1694
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:45 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by TheOmethod »

FYI, we have a full list of numbers and buyers. The ebayers will be contacted
User avatar
BigBp0057
Propaganda Engineer
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 11:02 am
Location: Philthadelphia Pistolvania
Contact:

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by BigBp0057 »

TheOmethod wrote:FYI, we have a full list of numbers and buyers. The ebayers will be contacted

AWESOME!
#1 ISO Visual Disobedience 04, #2 ISO Guns & Roses 18x24
Obey Prints For Sale: http://www.obeygiantprints.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My Collection: http://forum.thegiant.org/collection/others.php?u=2275" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
alwaysalx
Propaganda Engineer
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:32 pm

Re: Revolutions – The Album Cover Art of Shepard Fairey

Post by alwaysalx »

TheOmethod wrote:FYI, we have a full list of numbers and buyers. The ebayers will be contacted
Fukkin eh!
Hunt those clowns down and crucify them.
'the best things in life, are not things!
Post Reply