biting vs. borrowing (split)

Everyday discussion about all Obey Giant things.
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circa77
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Post by circa77 »

Jason Filipow wrote:Joshua- ...the real reason is that the ATrak print doesn't appeal to you is b/c it's going to be too much of a challenge for you to bite and add to your portfolio...ie, (I should note, that the below is a thumbnail of one of Joshua's portfolio pieces, NOT Shepard's)

Image


Shepard uses a lot of appropriation in his work. Scores of examples have been discussed among the threads of this very forum. I hope that I am not out of line in my asking, but is this different from what JB is doing? If so, how? Again, pardon my ignorance if there is something I am missing. I am just curious where artists should draw the line. (no pun intended)
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Post by AnotherDesigner »

circa77 wrote:
Jason Filipow wrote:Joshua- ...the real reason is that the ATrak print doesn't appeal to you is b/c it's going to be too much of a challenge for you to bite and add to your portfolio...ie, (I should note, that the below is a thumbnail of one of Joshua's portfolio pieces, NOT Shepard's)

Image


Shepard uses a lot of appropriation in his work. Scores of examples have been discussed among the threads of this very forum. I hope that I am not out of line in my asking, but is this different from what JB is doing? If so, how? Again, pardon my ignorance if there is something I am missing. I am just curious where artists should draw the line. (no pun intended)


Circa77, That was the most politically correct way of asking why so many "artists" bite Shep's style...
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Post by circa77 »

AnotherDesigner wrote:
Circa77, That was the most politically correct way of asking why so many "artists" bite Shep's style...


yes, I try to be nice. I have learned that being a jerk in this forum only breeds stupidity among others.

Anyway, I guess I am asking that, but I would also like to know what the difference is between JB's "bites" and Shepard's.

JB's work is highly influenced by Shepard's, just as Shepards work is highly influenced by ______________. (fill in the blank, there have been many mentioned. Most recently, the Peace Goddess and the Greek Money.)
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Post by AnotherDesigner »

All design has some kind of "inspiration". I do really like some of JB's shep-style prints (nightmare girl), so no hard feeling JB - you're baltimore, so you're cool in my book. Just don't be sou rough on shep stepping out from his norm.. it's a good thing to reach out..
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Post by MrMurk »

jbudich wrote:sorry...but this weeks print is f'in hideous...the colors are interesting, but the image is so far from what I'd expect from OBEY...

didn't even try this week to get the print...glad I didn't waste my time...


this guy is the biggest bandwagoner. I looked at your portfolio..Nice work...for a biter. Keep wasting your time trying to be original...Those photoshop filters can be a real poodle.
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Post by admonkey »

circa77 wrote:
Jason Filipow wrote:Joshua- ...the real reason is that the ATrak print doesn't appeal to you is b/c it's going to be too much of a challenge for you to bite and add to your portfolio...ie, (I should note, that the below is a thumbnail of one of Joshua's portfolio pieces, NOT Shepard's)

Image


Shepard uses a lot of appropriation in his work. Scores of examples have been discussed among the threads of this very forum. I hope that I am not out of line in my asking, but is this different from what JB is doing? If so, how? Again, pardon my ignorance if there is something I am missing. I am just curious where artists should draw the line. (no pun intended)


I think the difference lies in source vs. style.

There's a big difference, at least in my mind, between appropriating an image created by another artist-- an etching or a painting or a photograph or whatever-- and then using that image but putting a new twist or style to it. That's taking an object and re-imagining it through a 2nd artist's filter/eye/talent. That's what Warhol did.

Now, taking a particular artist's style and appropriating it wholecloth is something else altogether and it's already been pointed out that JB's most recent pieces aren't "kind of like" OG art, they might as well be OG art, even though OG's never used Coulter (or Thoreau) in their pieces. JB didn't appropriate an image, he appropriated a style for his most recent work.
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Post by circa77 »

MrMurk wrote:
jbudich wrote:sorry...but this weeks print is f'in hideous...the colors are interesting, but the image is so far from what I'd expect from OBEY...

didn't even try this week to get the print...glad I didn't waste my time...


this guy is the biggest bandwagoner. I looked at your portfolio..Nice work...for a biter. Keep wasting your time trying to be original...Those photoshop filters can be a real poodle.


What is the difference between him and Shepard?

This is probably going to be a split topic, if so, mods could you move it someplace where Jason would see it? thanks!
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Post by MrMurk »

circa77 wrote:
MrMurk wrote:
jbudich wrote:sorry...but this weeks print is f'in hideous...the colors are interesting, but the image is so far from what I'd expect from OBEY...

didn't even try this week to get the print...glad I didn't waste my time...


this guy is the biggest bandwagoner. I looked at your portfolio..Nice work...for a biter. Keep wasting your time trying to be original...Those photoshop filters can be a real poodle.


What is the difference between him and Shepard?

This is probably going to be a split topic, if so, mods could you move it someplace where Jason would see it? thanks!


Shepard has a posse.
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Post by circa77 »

admonkey wrote:Now, taking a particular artist's style and appropriating it wholecloth is something else altogether ... JB didn't appropriate an image, he appropriated a style for his most recent work.


Thanks for pointing that out. It makes sense. Then guess the question would then be: "is appropriating ones style worse than appropriating ones work/images/etc." I cannot see how that would be true, after all, are we not all influenced by everything we see/read/hear etc. We appropraite style everyday when we cloth ourselves. Is this not true?
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Post by circa77 »

MrMurk wrote:Shepard has a posse.



Unless your post was some sort of attempt at humor, let me make sure I understand what you are saying: because he has a posse, Shepard is allowed to copy other peoples work? But if other people do the same they should be called out by this posse. Something doesn't sound right here.
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Post by AnotherDesigner »

OFF Topic Boys...

Now how about that Bunny
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Post by circa77 »

Image
D. Moore 1920
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Post by admonkey »

circa77 wrote:
admonkey wrote:Now, taking a particular artist's style and appropriating it wholecloth is something else altogether ... JB didn't appropriate an image, he appropriated a style for his most recent work.


Thanks for pointing that out. It makes sense. Then guess the question would then be: "is appropriating ones style worse than appropriating ones work/images/etc." I cannot see how that would be true, after all, are we not all influenced by everything we see/read/hear etc. We appropraite style everyday when we cloth ourselves. Is this not true?


I think the difference there (clothing) is in use vs. creation.

I'm not creating fashion when I throw on ("appropriate") OG-style clothing, I'm wearing it.

Now, were I to sit down with a sewing machine and some screens and create my own clothing line... that just happens to appropriate OG style... that would be biting.

And of course we're influenced by everything we see, read and hear. There are ways to approach using styles in a blended way that won't "bite" someone else's work. Here's a real-world example:

Several years ago I was given an assignment to develop a radio campaign for a super-regional Tex-Mex restaurant chain. My idea to separate them from the pack of other Tex-Mex joints (this is back when Tex-Mex was just starting to lift off into the stratosphere) was to play up the Tex side of their menu.

So I developed a sound for the spots I called "cowboy vaudeville." In imagining the sound, what I heard in my head was a 'talking' singer (think Johnny Cash) meeting Don Rich's tick-tock guitar work meeting Johnny Gimble's fiddle playing meeting The Carter Family's "call and answer" style... but that broke down the wall between the lead singer and the backup vocalists that would allow them to interact with a funny results.

So I was working with a lot of influences: Johnny Cash, Buck Owens (through his guitar player), Bob Wills (through a fiddle player who has a knack of sounding like him) and the Carter Family (to make no mention of vaudeville comedy influences).

But when you listen to the spots (ONE --- TWO --- THREE) I don't think anyone would say "that's a Johnny Cash song," or "that's a Buck Owens" song or anything of the sort because I took those influences and filtered them through my own lense in order to create a new style.

That's how you avoid biting.
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Post by MrMurk »

circa77 wrote:
MrMurk wrote:Shepard has a posse.



Unless your post was some sort of attempt at humor, let me make sure I understand what you are saying: because he has a posse, Shepard is allowed to copy other peoples work? But if other people do the same they should be called out by this posse. Something doesn't sound right here.


Well bad attempt at humor I guess...But more than anyhting I was trying to point out that nobody cares about that other guy.
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Post by AnotherDesigner »

Just like when I had to write 10 page papers in school... Just don't plagerize from one author, you have to mix it up so you fool the reader into thinking it's all your original thoughts.....

Be ORIGINAL - No one gets big by copying others... Unless your Puff Daddy
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Post by blackheart »

Along with the Mixtape, OBEY will release a limited screen-printed poster and a limited t-shirt exclusively sold in premiere music and clothing shops/boutiques worldwide.


looks like we get the tee shirt too!!

PS: Its a style reproduction not an Image reproduction there is a difference Look into it
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Post by mose »

AnotherDesigner wrote:
Be ORIGINAL - No one gets big by copying others... Unless your Puff Daddy


did you know that he invented the remix?
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Post by AnotherDesigner »

mose wrote:
AnotherDesigner wrote:
Be ORIGINAL - No one gets big by copying others... Unless your Puff Daddy


did you know that he invented the remix?


lol.. funny, yeah right... That's ALL him
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Post by mrxscarface28 »

mose wrote:
AnotherDesigner wrote:
Be ORIGINAL - No one gets big by copying others... Unless your Puff Daddy


did you know that he invented the remix?


Just like how Al Gore invented the internet, right? lol
"We must never forget that art is not a form of propaganda; it is a form of truth."

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Post by circa77 »

admonkey, I totally respect your opinion and the insights that you've provided. I hope that you do not think that I am attacking you, because it is not my intention to make you feel that way.

The radio ad example is a good one that showcases how to avoid biting style. You were very successful at doing so.

Would you agree with me that Shepard bites from the works of key Russian propaganda artists' style in many of his works?

If not, then there is no arguement here. We don't see things the same way and we must move on.

If so, how is Shepards use of Stenbergs' or Moore's influence different from JB's use of Shepard's influence?
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Post by blackheart »

mrxscarface28 wrote:
mose wrote:
AnotherDesigner wrote:
Be ORIGINAL - No one gets big by copying others... Unless your Puff Daddy


did you know that he invented the remix?


Just like how Al Gore invented the internet, right? lol


Hold on i thought Al Gore invented global warming.......or was that manbearpig????

hmmmmmmmmm
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Post by scud80 »

there's a difference between just copying somebody's style, and taking somebody's imagery to repurpose in your own way. the first is lame, and the second is one of the fundamental pillars of modern/contemporary art ... hehe.
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Post by blackheart »

circa77 wrote:admonkey, I totally respect your opinion and the insights that you've provided. I hope that you do not think that I am attacking you, because it is not my intention to make you feel that way.

The radio ad example is a good one that showcases how to avoid biting style. You were very successful at doing so.

Would you agree with me that Shepard bites from the works of key Russian propaganda artists' style in many of his works?

If not, then there is no arguement here. We don't see things the same way and we must move on.

If so, how is Shepards use of Stenbergs' or Moore's influence different from JB's use of Shepard's influence?


you are not seeing the difference between Image reproduction and style reproduction. Just because someone painted a bowl of fruit doesnt mean that every other person painting it was "biting" as you call it. Because they did it in thier own style.

Images are not as important as style. A style is an artists soul an image is what they are working on lately.
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Post by admonkey »

circa77 wrote:admonkey, I totally respect your opinion and the insights that you've provided. I hope that you do not think that I am attacking you, because it is not my intention to make you feel that way.

The radio ad example is a good one that showcases how to avoid biting style. You were very successful at doing so.

Would you agree with me that Shepard bites from the works of key Russian propaganda artists' style in many of his works?

If not, then there is no arguement here. We don't see things the same way and we must move on.

If so, how is Shepards use of Stenbergs' or Moore's influence different from JB's use of Shepard's influence?


I think much of Shepard's work falls within a style I'll call Absurdist Constructivism. Constructivism's not a style "owned" by any particular artist any more than Pointillism is. I don't think that, if I were to create a pointillist work, anyone would say I was biting Seurat.

Now if I created a pointillist work that used a blue over green, red over yellow color palette and chose as my subject matter, say, people enjoying a day in the park (a theme of his that is repeated over and over and over) then, yeah, I'd be biting Seurat.

Especially if my intent was to make my work look like a Seurat.

I don't believe Shep wants to have his style confused with anyone else's, Russian Constructivist or not.
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Post by circa77 »

blackheart wrote:PS: Its a style reproduction not an Image reproduction there is a difference Look into it



blackheart wrote:
you are not seeing the difference between Image reproduction and style reproduction. Just because someone painted a bowl of fruit doesnt mean that every other person painting it was "biting" as you call it. Because they did it in thier own style.

Images are not as important as style. A style is an artists soul an image is what they are working on lately.



not sure I am following you. Are you saying that Shepard does not reproduce (bite) any other style?

Much of Shepard's work is produced in the Propaganda Art style. Specifically that of Russian influence. He did not invent the style, other artists did.

this may not be the best example, but I will try. While the following image is not a work produced by Shepard, it is something that we would not be surprised if he produced it. It is what we have come to call Shepard's style of art, when in fact it is not. It is early-mid 20th century Russian Propaganda style art. If shepard reproduced this exact image in a limited silkscreen edition of 300 we'd all be saying that it is a very strong image and we'd stay in front of our computer far longer than we did for the A-Trak image. Am I wrong?

Image

Admonkey, I see your point. But Shepard has copied other specific artists styles. He does have some original work that is not like unto anyone else's. So does JB. Again, I see no difference between the two. please explain your thoughts on this. I would like to read them.

Before I go any further I need to clarify something to everyone. I am sure at this point people are starting to think that I am a hater/critic of Shepard's use of appropriation. I AM NOT. I really do not care about the whole appropriation issue. Many people do. I do not. I really don't. I am a critic of people putting JB and other Artitists on the spot for doing the very thing that Shepard does. There is something intrinsically wrong about calling the guy out because, as one user said, "nobody cares about him". It is this type of mentallity that really bothers me.
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